LHD Euro Spec

[DMZ]

Greetings all, I hope you are all well.

As you know, the DeLorean can be a subject of lengthy discussion. However, I find it difficult to find accurate refences on the net and in literature concerning Euro-spec cars, mainly because it seems that the information revolves almost exclusively around cars converted to right hand drive. This curiosity was aroused when I was reading Wikipedia - irresponsible I know! However, with the following the DeLorean has, I thought it to be a pretty good bet for accuracy. But it would seem, again, there was yet another...interesting version of events concerning Euro spec cars.

I was asked by Phil Peters a while ago for information on the Euro spec. I was told, long ago by a reliable source, that there were originally 14 Euro-spec 'prototypes'. Of these, 11 were converted on commission to become right hand drive, leaving three in their original LHD state, though with the euro mods. Of these three, two were manual transmission, one automatic. Despite even the 'SIJ' plate prefix being acknowledged in sources, the 3 (if there were three: I know of at least one) phantom LHD Euro specs are usually overlooked in these (usually RHD-conversion-orientated) histories.

I wondered what the consensus is on this data, on internet and literary sources. All I know for sure is that there is innacuracy/omission of infomation...!

[Phil Peters]

DMZ Wrote:All I know for sure is that there is innacuracy/omission of infomation...!

Hi Demelza,

I agree completely with you here. That was one of the reasons I got in touch asking for info about your car as it was extremely difficult to find any documented info on the Euro-spec LHD cars. It would be great to have something written up about this which could eventually go on the club website and help dispel some of the myths.

I believe there is an important distinction to be made between the term “RHD” and the term “Euro-spec” in that you could have a Euro-spec car which was LHD and a RHD car which was not Euro-spec. Indeed, the evidence available to date suggests the possibility of the following types of car existing:

• LHD
  RHD
  LHD Euro-spec
  RHD Euro-spec

Can you tell us what modifications were performed on your car as part of the Euro-spec program?

Were there any factory documents related to the Euro-spec program included in the car’s history file when you bought the car?

I remember your Dad telling me that Simon Lees-Milne had made modifications to the car’s rear suspension (custom-made lower springs I think?) and he also modified the car’s fueling system to increase performance to around 167bhp. Do you know what the original ride height and fueling set-up was?

When your car was photographed in Thoroughbred & Classic Cars Magazine (August 1995 issue) it was wearing an “A” prefix plate whereas it now has an SIJ number plate. Do you know what the story was behind that?

Apologies in advance for this barrage of questions!!

Best wishes,

Phil

[Chris P]

I remember seeing that car when it was Simon's. Yes he had modified several bits. I'm not sure if it may have been one of Gerry Castles efforts. Hence the Rubber lights on the rear. But I personally am not aware of any other LHD's with Euro-lights. We ought to try and have a word with Simon at the NEC...assuming he is there. Simon always referred to it as a "Euro-spec" LHD car.

[DMZ]

I know the car has all the major Euro-spec systemic differences:

- A metal (steel) fuel tank
- Rubbolites and their custom surrounds
- Red foglight switch on one of the 'dummy' plates by the window switches
- 140 mph speedo
- All amber long (not round) side markers
- No catalytic converter. Simon simply had a new exhaust and manifold designed to 'clean up' the original setup - it had the original DMC exhaust and pipework minus the cats. Yes it had the mix tweaked too.

I have PMed more details to each of you. Its simply about completion, from a historical point of view. As well as the lack of information, it is the fact that the literature omits even the possibility of a car of this spec existing. Just thought it worth bringing up.

[Phil Peters]

I’ve never doubted the possibility that a LHD Euro-spec car could (or does) exist. And while I’m interested in both DMCL’s RHD and Euro-spec developments, my main area of knowledge and experience is the RHD conversion programme. As a result, and out of respect for your car (and its owner), I’ve always felt that I would be “speaking out of turn” if I wrote conclusively about LHD Euro-spec.

As Chris noted in his post above, the steel fuel tank, Rubbolites and their custom surrounds, red foglight switch, plate and 4 long amber side markers owe nothing to DMCL or Wooler-Hodec’s Euro-spec or RHD development programme. These items were all retrofitted to the cars after the factory closed by ex-DeLorean worker Gerry Castle in order for the cars to meet EEC standards and regulations. The different seat belts and “SIJ” plate are another Gerry Castle tell-tale sign. Mary Hooper wrote an excellent article about these modifications in DeLorean World Volume XVII, No. III (Summer 2000).

I agree with you, it’s a matter of historical completeness and getting the facts right. But discounting the Gerry Castle modifications the question still remains, what is the definition of “Euro spec”?

Cheers,

Phil

[bozzzydmc]

DMZ Wrote:Greetings all, I hope you are all well.

As you know, the DeLorean can be a subject of lengthy discussion. However, I find it difficult to find accurate refences on the net and in literature concerning Euro-spec cars, mainly because it seems that the information revolves almost exclusively around cars converted to right hand drive. This curiosity was aroused when I was reading Wikipedia - irresponsible I know! However, with the following the DeLorean has, I thought it to be a pretty good bet for accuracy. But it would seem, again, there was yet another...interesting version of events concerning Euro spec cars.

I was asked by Phil Peters a while ago for information on the Euro spec. I was told, long ago by a reliable source, that there were originally 14 Euro-spec 'prototypes'. Of these, 11 were converted on commission to become right hand drive, leaving three in their original LHD state, though with the euro mods. Of these three, two were manual transmission, one automatic. Despite even the 'SIJ' plate prefix being acknowledged in sources, the 3 (if there were three: I know of at least one) phantom LHD Euro specs are usually overlooked in these (usually RHD-conversion-orientated) histories.

I wondered what the consensus is on this data, on internet and literary sources. All I know for sure is that there is innacuracy/omission of infomation...!

Hi

This is all very interesting .. can I ask when you say converted Im assuming you mean by Wooler Hodec? That being the case i can see yours been left for whatever reason as a LHD but with the rest / most of the modifications. The largest one for me being the installation of a steel fuel tank .

On a differnet note ...for the cars fitted with circular side lights, are these also flashers?
and are the wings 'standard' type with the differnet rubber moulding covering up the rest of the rectangular hole underneath?

http://www.deloreans.co.uk/features/eur ... ater02.jpg

[bozzzydmc]

DMZ Wrote:Greetings all, I hope you are all well.

As you know, the DeLorean can be a subject of lengthy discussion. However, I find it difficult to find accurate refences on the net and in literature concerning Euro-spec cars, mainly because it seems that the information revolves almost exclusively around cars converted to right hand drive. This curiosity was aroused when I was reading Wikipedia - irresponsible I know! However, with the following the DeLorean has, I thought it to be a pretty good bet for accuracy. But it would seem, again, there was yet another...interesting version of events concerning Euro spec cars.

I was asked by Phil Peters a while ago for information on the Euro spec. I was told, long ago by a reliable source, that there were originally 14 Euro-spec 'prototypes'. Of these, 11 were converted on commission to become right hand drive, leaving three in their original LHD state, though with the euro mods. Of these three, two were manual transmission, one automatic. Despite even the 'SIJ' plate prefix being acknowledged in sources, the 3 (if there were three: I know of at least one) phantom LHD Euro specs are usually overlooked in these (usually RHD-conversion-orientated) histories.

I wondered what the consensus is on this data, on internet and literary sources. All I know for sure is that there is innacuracy/omission of infomation...!

Hi

This is all very interesting .. can I ask when you say converted Im assuming you mean by Wooler Hodec? That being the case i can see yours been left for whatever reason as a LHD but with the rest / most of the modifications. The largest one for me being the installation of a steel fuel tank .

On a differnet note ...for the cars fitted with circular side lights, are these also flashers?
and are the wings 'standard' type with the differnet rubber moulding covering up the rest of the rectangular hole underneath?

[Dan6457]

Why did they have a steel fuel tank? Plastic ones are perfectly legal in this country....?

Also why were the side lights changed for those little round flashers when the standard ones (wired to flash) are also perfectly legal?

Same for the rear lights, why change them when the originals are also legal!!?

[Phil Peters]

Different rules and regulations back then I guess. Again I think Mary touched on this in her article.

The catalytic converters were also removed. How times have changed! This may have been down to them not being acceptable or due to the lack of unleaded petrol (a different filler neck had been designed for leaded petrol pumps).

Cheers,

Phil

[NickT]

At that time we had good old leaded petrol with the different star ( **** ) ratings. Each start meant the fuel was to a certain octane rating.
We didn't start using unleaded petrol until about 1985 ish.
I think all new cars from 1986 had to be compatible with unleaded.
Unleaded phased leaded out until 1992/3 where all cars had to be fitted with a 3 way cat on closed loop fuel injection.
Mind you, catalytic converters strangle power, especially the very early small pitch monoith type as in the D. See how much power you gain just by fitting a bypass pipe (if it fits :roll: ).

Lead was used as an octane booster, discovered in early 20th century and it helped the engines of the time run smoother.
Today’s unleaded uses compounds like benzene and other horrible complex aromatic hydrocarbons and these are cancerous.
Not exactly the environmental fix but using closed loop engine management does stop people 'tinkering' with fuel settings and setting them too rich in an attempt to get more power.

Back to work...............

NickT

[Darren C]

Dan1986 Wrote:Why did they have a steel fuel tank? Plastic ones are perfectly legal in this country....?

Also why were the side lights changed for those little round flashers when the standard ones (wired to flash) are also perfectly legal?

Same for the rear lights, why change them when the originals are also legal!!?

Hi Dan,

In late 1980 the Uk passed a law regarding indicators that stated they had to be seen from the side view of the car. Most cars had "wrap around" or corner style indicators, so this wasn't a problem. Some cars however such as the Porsche 911 and the Delorean had recessed indicators on the front which couldn't be seen from the side. For 1981 model year Porsche and other manufacturers such as VW had to fit side indicators.

Goodness knows why Wooler Hodec didn't modify the side markers, and opted to drill holes and fit hideous warts of an indicator that look completely out of place on the car?

The same applies for the rear lights, I may be wrong but I think the Euro lights stick out just that bit further to be proud of the rear facia for the reason explained above.

Kind Regards
D

[DMZ]

Phil Peters Wrote:I’ve never doubted the possibility that a LHD Euro-spec car could (or does) exist. And while I’m interested in both DMCL’s RHD and Euro-spec developments, my main area of knowledge and experience is the RHD conversion programme. As a result, and out of respect for your car (and its owner), I’ve always felt that I would be “speaking out of turn” if I wrote conclusively about LHD Euro-spec.

As Chris noted in his post above, the steel fuel tank, Rubbolites and their custom surrounds, red foglight switch, plate and 4 long amber side markers owe nothing to DMCL or Wooler-Hodec’s Euro-spec or RHD development programme. These items were all retrofitted to the cars after the factory closed by ex-DeLorean worker Gerry Castle in order for the cars to meet EEC standards and regulations. The different seat belts and “SIJ” plate are another Gerry Castle tell-tale sign. Mary Hooper wrote an excellent article about these modifications in DeLorean World Volume XVII, No. III (Summer 2000).

I agree with you, it’s a matter of historical completeness and getting the facts right. But discounting the Gerry Castle modifications the question still remains, what is the definition of “Euro spec”?

Cheers,

Phil

IN good humour, I am going to put forward a few abstract ideas - please don't anyone (particularly RHD ES owners) take offense!

Indeed, what does define the Euro-Spec? Whether it was DMCL, W-H, or Gerry Castle (working outside DMCL?), a car that has a range of fittings to meed EEC standards and regs, does that not make a Euro-Spec? Retro-fitting mods is little different in principle to turning a LHD into a RHD. What you are debating is which 'modded' cars should be given which designation, as per who did it, on whose authority, and what perceived 'value' that has. That depends also on what is regarded as the accepted Euro-Spec criteria. What makes a RHD car automatially Euro-Spec? I appreciate not all RHD conversions claim to be Euro-Spec, but the history of Euro-Spec and RHD is lumped together. Japan, India, South Africa and Australia use RHD! Mainland Europe all have LHD cars! We, the British, are the only quote '' Europeans '' who don't.... Could this more appropriately be called 'UK' Spec?! INteresting. Perversely, could a LHD with the EEC compliant features be actually seen (from a certain point of view) as more Euro-Spec than the RHDs by majority rule of proportion of Europe who drive LHD...??? Is that a good thing or a bad thing for me I don't know!

...and thus the paragraph as above has little relevance - its all a matter of perspective...We are really debating the title 'Euro-Spec' rather than the actuality(*see edit), or you could say all DeLoreans in Europe are Euro-spec.

I don't know the complete history either, and I'd be interested to read Mary's stuff again or talk to her, I know she knows some more. Can someone clarify what exactly Wooler-Hodec did in terms of Euro-Spec features (aside from RHD conversion projects)?

ON this site the Rubberlite fittings are described as 'the Euro-spec rear lights'. Not many cars still have these. Even if they are post-factory-closing mods, some effort also seems to have gone into Euro-speccing those and the rest of the car. We have a set of US lights, but don't feel like conforming! Chris you said the only 'proper homelergated (?)' ES (Euro-Spec - this needs an abbreviation!) is AXI 1697'. Could you explain? Was this a factory designated ES on paper? cheers

I'm not debating the value of any DeLorean variant -RHD, LHD, LHD ES or RHD ES, Wooler-Hodecs - simply the titles and designation given to each. Specifically the more I think about it, the more irrelevant it seems whether a car is LHD or RHD to the designation 'Euro-Spec'.

*Edit: meaning the actuality of conforming to EEC regs, regardless of LHD or RHD as both is 'European'

[Phil Peters]

Some interesting thoughts there.

I think our definitions of the term “Euro-Spec” differ somewhat. For me personally, when I refer to the term “Euro-Spec” I mean the technical specification of car which DMCL had designed and intended to release in mainland Europe (and possibly UK) markets, notwithstanding any separate modifications for RHD. If however you take the term “Euro-Spec” to mean a car which has been modified since it left the factory to comply with EEC rules and regulations then that would apply to just about any DeLorean on the road in the UK or Europe today.

DMZ Wrote:Indeed, what does define the Euro-Spec? Whether it was DMCL, W-H, or Gerry Castle (working outside DMCL?), a car that has a range of fittings to meed EEC standards and regs, does that not make a Euro-Spec?

No, to me this would be a federal car which has been sufficiently modified to comply with EEC standards and regs.

DMZ Wrote:Specifically the more I think about it, the more irrelevant it seems whether a car is LHD or RHD to the designation 'Euro-Spec'.

Yes, this comes back to what I said in my original post at the start of this topic: I believe there is an important distinction to be made between the term “RHD” and the term “Euro-spec”. They are not the same term and just because a car is RHD does not mean that it is Euro-Spec.

DMZ Wrote:That depends also on what is regarded as the accepted Euro-Spec criteria. What makes a RHD car automatially Euro-Spec?

Nothing. Again, this relates to what I said in my original post.

DMZ Wrote:What you are debating is which 'modded' cars should be given which designation, as per who did it, on whose authority, and what perceived 'value' that has.

No, what I am debating is which cars were engineered either by or on behalf of DMCL as representative of their projected offering to the UK and / or European market, had the company survived into 1983 and beyond, versus which cars were modified after the event to comply with EEC standards and regulations. In any case, the only ‘value’ in all of this is historical value.

DMZ Wrote:ON this site the Rubberlite fittings are described as 'the Euro-spec rear lights'.

This is one of the areas of the website which I feel is inaccurate because there is no evidence to suggest that DMCL ever planned to fit these lights to a DMC-12. To that end, I feel it's a bit misleading to call them 'Euro-spec rear lights'.

DMZ Wrote:Can someone clarify what exactly Wooler-Hodec did in terms of Euro-Spec features (aside from RHD conversion projects)?

The research carried out to date indicates that they were not contracted to specifically design any Euro-Spec features but rather to focus on the RHD conversion. Quoting a DMC factory document dated 1981 “A contract has been established with Wooler-Hodec in England to design and build a RHD version of the DMC12.”


It’s not sufficient to assume that the “Euro-Spec” car would have simply been a modified federal-spec car. The engine and gearbox package itself is / was different. The following is from a document given to me by Barrie Wills several years ago:

Comparison of European & U.S. Specification Performance
Engine power output - 130 Bhp (US) 150 Bhp (European)
Compression Ratio - 8.8:1 (US) 9.5:1 (European)
Final Drive Ratio - 3.44:1 (US) 3.89:1 (European)

[DMZ]

This is indeed interesting, we've crossed a few wires but no matter, I'm just going to throw a few more thoughts down, again, meant in the best of character for the sake of interest. Forgive my lack of knowledge and subsequent over-compensation with hypothesis...!

Phil Peters Wrote:I think our definitions of the term “Euro-Spec” differ somewhat. For me personally, when I refer to the term “Euro-Spec” I mean the technical specification of car which DMCL had designed and intended to release in mainland Europe (and possibly UK) markets, notwithstanding any separate modifications for RHD. If however you take the term “Euro-Spec” to mean a car which has been modified since it left the factory to comply with EEC rules and regulations then that would apply to just about any DeLorean on the road in the UK or Europe today.

DMZ Wrote:Indeed, what does define the Euro-Spec? Whether it was DMCL, W-H, or Gerry Castle (working outside DMCL?), a car that has a range of fittings to meed EEC standards and regs, does that not make a Euro-Spec?

No, to me this would be a federal car which has been sufficiently modified to comply with EEC standards and regs.

I agree and this is precisely the point I was attempting to communicate with:

DMZ Wrote:What you are debating is which 'modded' cars should be given which designation, as per who did it, on whose authority, and what perceived 'value' that has.

and

DMZ Wrote:We are really debating the title 'Euro-Spec' rather than the actuality.

And the value I was referring to was indeed historical. Its not the physical charateristics, but the 'designation'

Phil Peters Wrote:No, what I am debating is which cars were engineered either by or on behalf of DMCL as representative of their projected offering to the UK and / or European market, had the company survived into 1983 and beyond, versus which cars were modified after the event to comply with EEC standards and regulations. In any case, the only ‘value’ in all of this is historical value.

I think we actually are thinking along the same lines - I was presenting a hypothetical discussion with various (and contradictory) theories to get one thinking - which you clearly have been! Therefore if

Phil Peters Wrote:It’s not sufficient to assume that the “Euro-Spec” car would have simply been a modified federal-spec car. The engine and gearbox package itself is / was different.

What do you mean by 'package'? I wouldn't think they would have designed a new engine/gearbox for Europe (it was European anyway!). So skipping to the end of your post, I take it by different package you mean the different ratios and bhp - but the same engine. But that does make it sort of a modified fed in a sense. Remember prototypes often are just modified versions of the previous. You might conclude that there never was a 'Euro-Spec' - by official definition. Of course DMC sadly never made any production Euro-specs.

Phil Peters Wrote:

DMZ Wrote:ON this site the Rubberlite fittings are described as 'the Euro-spec rear lights'.

This is one of the areas of the website which I feel is inaccurate because there is no evidence to suggest that DMCL ever planned to fit these lights to a DMC-12. As a result, I feel it's misleading to call them 'Euro-spec rear lights'.

No I wouldn't think they'd use truck lights on a production model!! Although its an interesting study from my designers point of view to see how a different context affects a features received perception..

As you all will appreciate, a prototypical version of a proceeding model in auto manufacture very often does not have the actual fittings (lights, engine, even interior, wheels especially) that is intended for the production version. An experimental version of a new model can be quite crude, and its not uncommon to use guerilla fittings simply to illustrate a principle - i.e. that of for example and integrated foglight. This is not entirely relevant I know (if something is not DMCL authorised) - just worth bearing in mind when you think of features intended for production.

I am aware that the information you have states the 'euro' tail lights were done after the factory shut, by an ex-employee. I'd love to have a talk some time on the research you have gathered as you clearly have more information at you disposal than I do! Even accepting of this information, something still doesn't add up for me. What I want to know is the things like the speedo, which is a professionally manufactured 140mph gauge and plate (you can't just knock these things up in a shed); the fuel tank; and the surrounding for the 'truck lights' - none of that is easy or quick work. There are quicker and cheaper ways to make a car conform to regs simply to sell on. For example, most DeLoreans in Europe are road legal, as you rightly know and state. So why on earth was so much effort put into the quote 'euro-spec' features created on a group of the RHD cars (and at least one LHD)? It may have been done after the factory shut yet it is done in such a way as to bear all the hallmarks of perhaps not a model intended for production, but a prototype, intended to illustrate a point which is the purpose of most prototypes. I talk, of course, as someone who has spent almost four years doing a degree in the car design and production industry! Not that that qualifies me with DeLorean knowledge! Please appreciate I'm not arguing a point, but merely draughting thoughts.

continued...

[DMZ]

...continued

Phil Peters Wrote:

DMZ Wrote:Can someone clarify what exactly Wooler-Hodec did in terms of Euro-Spec features (aside from RHD conversion projects)?

The research carried out to date indicates that they were not contracted to specifically design any Euro-Spec features but rather to focus on the RHD conversion. Quoting a DMC factory document dated 1981 “A contract has been established with Wooler-Hodec in England to design and build a RHD version of the DMC12.”

The Wooler-Hodecs are a factory authorised modification I always knew that - they are successful prototypes for the DeLorean RHD (in industry, a production model would have a completely new chassis designed, rather than a LHD modified hence technically prototypical - with a 26-year road test!). They are not an issue. They have a solid story.



I still think that the cars which received the set of modifications as stated before should not be relegated to an indiscriminate 'post factory mod'. I couldn't tell you the ratios but the bhp sounds exactly right for the DMCL euro-spec figures as it came to Simon. I'll look for more info when I get home. I do have a sheet of specs somewhere. The car that represents "the technical specification of car which DMCL had designed and intended to release in mainland Europe" may be a unicorn, if what you say is true. Or perhaps some but not all of the mods were DMCL. I don't know. I'm sure one of you does so, what I would like to know in time from you (now my curiosity has arisen) is what you know on the official Euro-spec DMCL programme for I think I'm running out of knowledge to impart. All I know is that we (my family and I) have a car that was modified extensively for whatever reason, before it began life in the public domain.

Edit: Theres nothing like writing an extensive post late at night, checking it in the morning and thinking what the...? did I write there! Just altered a few bits chaps...