Parts, and why we no longer sell them.

[Chris Williams]

I have been asked a good many times why the club no longer sells parts (with a couple of exceptions where these are manufactured by a company) I have attached a pdf of an article from a meeting I attended with the FBHVC recently.
If you read this you will note that the supply of parts to our cars (actually any parts to anything) has become a legal minefield with cases of insurance companies in some circumstances not paying out if your car is involved in an accident where they can prove the failure is due to a non standard or sub standard part having been fitted to your vehicle.  Not only this should you (or passengers) suffer injuries that may need care in the future then you may need to sue the supplier direct (or try to) as again your insurer may decline any claim.
Clearly this has all become a minefield (much more so for the USA) and has prompted some clubs to cease the sale of critical parts to members and the public. My advice would be that any part that you buy and fit to any car would be that you buy from a recognised supplier who is happy to provide you with a copy of the companies Public Liability Insurance and the company name of whom is supplying the parts along with keeping receipts of any parts that are supplied. This way at least should the worse occur you can prove where the parts came from and that they were bought in good faith. This, although posted on a DeLorean forum is not specifically aimed at Deloreans and the supply of parts for them. Though clearly relevant to the DeLorean parts supply as more and more 'new' parts are developed around the world. It's aimed as more of a general car 'thing' Lots of us have multiple classics and also work on our day to day vehicles.
Therefore we will continue to use the cross reference sections of the forum to 'point' you in the direction of where to buy parts and the part that you need. However the suitability of any parts you purchase is your choice and any advise given through this forum is that. Advise only. You must make the decision as to that part from any supplier being suitable for your car. I'm happy to provide any purchaser from the clubs shop with a copy of the DOC's PL Insurance and suggest you do the same from any other supplier of parts.

  Parts.pdf (Size: 792.17 KB / Downloads: 15)

[Rissy]

It's an interesting point, but may I also point out another equally valid point.

I'll use a common concern item for my point. (may not be relevant, as i don't know about the intimacies of this particular item from the main business sources we have (or their legal standing) i.e. Ed, DMCH, (even Martin?)

Fuel hoses. Lots of vehicles (ok, mostly the States) bursting into flames due to old hoses still remaining on the car and failing. Negligent, therefore uninsured?

Replace hoses (best intentions in place to keep the vehicle safe), from a source of trust, but no official liability in place (potentially). Vehicle still bursts into flames. Cause determined to be fuel hoses. Negligent, therefore uninsured?

How to win?

[Chris Williams]

Your right, you cant win. the difference being that everything on the car from production is type approved (or whatever) so no one can contest that it was suitable for the vehicle. That's how it was explained at the meeting I attended. I don't have OE fuel hoses as I don't trust them either, I have seen both old and modern fuel hoses leak on a DeLorean. Interestingly in my 'proper' job I see a lot of fuel hoses leaking due to rodent damage. Not sure what there making them out off now or it's the addition of all the bio Diesel that's making them so tasty!
Chris

[Rissy]

"type approved" is only worth any value within a reasonable life expectancy, and if that has past (which in our cases, it has), then they're still no longer "fit for purpose". So what do you do? If you replace them with like for like, all be it unused OEM, but still circa 35yrs old, then there is an argument there that these should have been modernized. In steps vender X with his "great new product made to modern standards and tested for safety" (but NOT type approved or liability covered), then buying them, you're still as badly positioned as you would be if you'd done nothing (in the eyes of the insurance people - not us, as we'd have "faith" that we're being responsible etc)

Basically, it comes down to the age old story of insurance being legalized robbery. They make up their own rules, and hold you to it, and squirrel their way out of any responsibility at the mere hint of exceptional chance. If you read deep enough, you come to discover that you're uncovered no matter what you do, but they'll still take your money from you and let you think you are!

Bunch of robbing .......... (fill in the blank)


...that reminds me, I must renew my insurance as it runs out on the 9th. sigh.

[Chris Williams]

Quote:In steps vender X with his "great new product made to modern standards and tested for safety" (but NOT type approved or liability covered

Yes, but there in lies the issue. Is vendor X testing this product to meet all the safety critical needs of the product concerned? Are they insuring that the product meets those needs as the insurance (if in place) only covers the part if it has actually met any legal standard that it needs to, to replace the component. Usually not a problem if it's a door seal for a Morris Marina but if it's a safety critical part of the suspension (for example) for the Marina that fails at speed on you and kills your wife/child/bystander who will your insurance/other party insurance then be looking at? You cant just produce a safety critical part for a car and say it's fine, it has to be tested to meet any relevant standard that that part has to meet.
This was supposed to have been a sticky topic as well, but I forgot to do it! This topic is not supposed to be a dig at any of our parts vendors, it's a recommended posting from the FBHVC to cover us.
Chris

[Rissy]

I understand its a serious issue. But i'm also trying to illustrate its probability of it being unsolvable.

Vender's although with the best of intentions and interest in supplying a product which will receive good reviews, will no doubt be cost saving by not paying out the healthy sums of cash involved in getting products certificated and stamped with the legally recognizable stamp approval. (I haven't seen a single "CE" mark on any new/replacement products available for our cars)
To do so would incur even higher charges for said product over and above what they're already charging, and us as owners, with our reluctance to pay even higher charges in the first place....

The parts would become unrealistically expensive, because there simply isn't the volume of demand there to take advantage of the economies of scale like there is for major manufacturers churning out millions of vehicles.

So. We as owners are left with the same two avenues of choice already discussed up the page. Do nothing, and eventually let the car become unsafe by doing nothing, or we improvise or succumb to the offerings available.

We could of course refuse to buy from vender's unless they get type approval certifications in place, but we wouldn't like the resultant price. There will always be those out there who are willing to go ahead without the certification of course too. So unless it becomes some sort of legal requirement under British or EU law, then I feel that insurance companies are unfairly squeezing owners into an even harder corner from which to stay legal and covered, even with the best available opportunity to keep best intentions in place, given the current standing of choice.

[Chris Williams]

Quote:stamped with the legally recognizable stamp approval. (I haven't seen a single "CE" mark on any new/replacement products available for our cars)

That's not exactly correct, the parts that I have had made such as Spax Shocks/Brake lines (Hel) have all been manufactured by companies that do give the CE/TUV certification, that's why we sold them. It's also why I never hid the source so other clubs/suppliers could sell them also. Brake lines going into Germany for example have to have the TUV certification.
Chris

[Rissy]

(02 Sep 2016, 12:52)Chris Williams Wrote:

Quote:stamped with the legally recognizable stamp approval. (I haven't seen a single "CE" mark on any new/replacement products available for our cars)

That's not exactly correct, the parts that I have had made such as Spax Shocks/Brake lines (Hel) have all been manufactured by companies that do give the CE/TUV certification, that's why we sold them. It's also why I never hid the source so other clubs/suppliers could sell them also. Brake lines going into Germany for example have to have the TUV certification.
Chris

Those parts of course, because they're produced by responsible companies where this product is their speciality, i was thinking about this as i typed it, but you know there's still a lot of parts out there which wont carry certification.  Vender's covering all bases with no speciality except for producing "stuff" for the one car.

Anyway, i'm sure you get my point although in *some* places, we will be ok.  In others, no (I at least doubt).

[Guinney1971]

interesting thread this, and it was something several insurers raised with me when I was sorting out this years Public Liability Insurance (copy on its way to you Chris W).

If we are no longer going to be in the 'parts supply' area, I will make sure this is reflected in next years premium, hopefully we'll get a reduction instead of it going up again, despite us never having had a claim!

[Dangermouse]

So, In the UK, would a car insurer deny a claim based on either expired OEM parts or "non-approved" replacement parts?

Perhaps more importantly has an insured denied a claim on this basis?

[Chris Williams]

Quote:Perhaps more importantly has an insured denied a claim on this basis?

According to the FBHVC yes, on more than one occasion. Though they would not go into specific details as in one case a test challenge is being made through the high court to clarify the details and reason for refusal of payout. It will no doubt come out in a future magazine from them.

[Rissy]

So the moral of the story is to advise your insurance company of any and all repairs or upgrades of safety critical parts of the vehicle to make sure they understand and will still cover you under such common understanding of modifications. If they don't then if there is no replacement possible, then tough. You can never drive your vehicle again.

I wonder how people (including me) stand with fitting Ed's stainless reinforcement brackets on the LCA's!!!!