+- The DeLorean Owners Club UK Forum (http://www.deloreans.co.uk/forum)
+-- Forum: DELOREAN HELP AND ADVICE & PARTS CROSS REFERENCE (http://www.deloreans.co.uk/forum/forumdisplay.php?fid=4)
+--- Forum: 2 - Emission / Fuel Systems (http://www.deloreans.co.uk/forum/forumdisplay.php?fid=14)
+--- Thread: LPG Conversion? (/showthread.php?tid=398)
- NickT - 08 Mar 2007
I personally wouldn't bother but then again I only use mine as a weekend car.
If you want to go ahead with this project I think a nice doughnut tank in the spare wheel well would keep the car looking nice and original. The fuel filler could then be possibly mounted under the bonnet keeping the original lines of the car.
Engineering it so it can be removed at a later date with no trace of installation could retain the value of the car. Talking of which, do the insurers add on a premium for LPG and if so I presume they would want a certified installation certificate.
If they can do a closed loop system then you can always use the D's oxygen sensor.
You could get a spare manifold and have individual injectors machined in them.
I think some one else was going to have thiers done and I gave my spare inlet manifold to them but I have forgotten who it was !
NickT.
Re: LPG Conversion? - bozzzydmc - 08 Mar 2007
DeanMitchell.net Wrote:Hi,
i'm seriously thinking about converting my new Delorean, which should be in my hands on Saturday to an LPG.
Have any owners done it? Maybe talk to Claire/ Phil W on this one.
Would I need a multi-point or single point conversion considering the design of the car? From What i understand... Multipoint
A local place to me supplies LPG conversion parts and say an open eneded system would be only £375+VAT in parts but they don't do fitting... or an extra £125+VAT for a closed loop system? Closed loop
Then where would I put the filler cap? I was thinking possibly in one of the panels under the louvres maybe? Filler cap on a flexible hose in the trunk area .
Should I go for the cylinder tank and install behind the cargo-net? In the spare wheel well
Or a donut tank in the luggage compartment? Yes
Any advice helpful.... thanks
Dean + 'Deanlorean'
My wife pointed out last night that taking away the LORE from Delorean it leaves you with my name..... maybe the cars always called to my subconcious.
- bozzzydmc - 08 Mar 2007
NickT Wrote:Talking of which, do the insurers add on a premium for LPG and if so I presume they would want a certified installation certificate.
NickT.
Good point...
Bang and your DeLorean is gone
- Chris Williams - 08 Mar 2007
There is a company in Royston that is 'supposed' to be good at LPG installations, not to far from you. If your interested I could get the number for you (dont think they have done any DeLoreans though!
Chris
- Guinney1971 - 08 Mar 2007
Hi Dean,
sorry, reading posts in 'flashing order' - I've kinda replied to the LPG thing in the "who's DGS803X" thread.
Cheers
- PJ Grady (Europe) - 09 Mar 2007
We have been asked a few times about LPG conversions - and so far, I've been able to talk people out of them!
The main benefit of LPG is the cost savings - if you do lots and lots of miles. However, unless your DeLorean is in tiptop condition - the cost of the fuel is likely to be the least of your problems. Maybe checking your cooling system, fuel system, braking system, joints, TABs, etc is more worthwhile?
Also - I'd advise very strongly against stashing any additional tanks anywhere in the front crumple area - the fuel tank itself is reasonaby well protected by the subframe - but stashing gas in the hood is a bit worrying - given that the 40mph crash tests show this getting completely crumpled!
Darren
- bozzzydmc - 09 Mar 2007
Well i really admire you all for thinking about doing it.
Im not sure that i would want a large cylinder of gas next to my head though.....
Apart from looking a little funny i can just imagine the general public saying
"Gee... look at the size of HIS Flux Capacitor !!!"
(I wonder where the filler pipe would go ? )
I agree with what Darren is saying, but if i was doing it, it would go in the wheel well with some form of secondary protection around it.
- bozzzydmc - 09 Mar 2007
Asked the LPG conversion question to a couple of guys in the States.
They know of no one else who has done this conversion on a D yet... unless anyone else knows somebody... i think you will be the first....
- Guinney1971 - 09 Mar 2007
the tanks themselves are absolutely bomb proof - do not be confused with the sort of gas bottle you get with a patio heater!! We;ve got a donut tank here at the moment, and it is quite a bit of kit!
Also, they have to be mounted to the chassis of the car, so are very safe.
Phill and Rich took Sorbet to a number of installers to check out where to mount stuff and all the rules and regulations. The companies were quite prepared to sell all the stuff to do it as a kit - or relieve us of around £2000 each and they'd do it (hmmmm, let me just think about that one for a minute..... :lol: )
The inlet manifold with injectors is all ready to go to the engineering shop, then it will be a case of getting the tank and all the ancilliaries.
You can pick up donut tanks really cheap, Phill got one (for a different car) off ebay recently, brand new, for less then £30 - and it was only in Wakefield.
The systems to go in Rapey and Guinney will be about £350 each, but it is abit more for V6's like the D's and Avi.
I guess the race is now on to see who can convert their car first! :wink:
- bozzzydmc - 09 Mar 2007
Claire Usher Wrote:The inlet manifold with injectors is all ready to go to the engineering shop
Claire
For the LPG conversion how many injectors are you fitting in the intake manifold, im thinking just two but maybe it still needs six ?
- Guinney1971 - 09 Mar 2007
DeanMitchell.net Wrote:LEGAL REQUIREMENT UPDATE:
Installers are telling me that you can't have any LPG tank in the front so the donut tank idea is out of the question.
really????
Phill and Rich were told by 3 official installers last year that a donut tank in the front would not be a problem - has the law suddenly changed? After all, the main fuel tank (made of plastic) is up front.
The gas tanks are very thick metal and very heavy, I'd rather trust one of those then the petrol tank tbh!!
Not sure about a tank on the parcel shelf though Dean, as surely that would block access to the relay compartments - also, they have to be vented to the outside, so afaik, are not allowed actually inside the passenger compartment of a vehicle.
£375 for a kit.......that sounds way too cheap and is more likely to be a single point injection system (as I would have on my Rapier and Cavalier) and is not suitable for a DeLorean. You need a non sequential multi point system with seperate injectors (6) into the inlet manifold. The DIY kit for this system is more like £800 (plus VAT). I suspect that £1300 would also be for only a single point system.
Also, its a legal requirement, that the gas filler has to be on the outside of the vehicle - all though Phill has thought of a very neat solution to this that does not involve cutting holes in the stainless or the bumpers :wink:
Interesting thread this though!!
Sorbet's conversion is having to wait a bit though, while work is done on another member of the fleet - and while we wait for the spare inlet manifold to be engineered.........
- bozzzydmc - 09 Mar 2007
well im certainly no expert but after reading a bit about it thats why i though that two injectors would have been 'enough', but hell all six why not
If it cant go in the front or in a passenger compartment then we are a bit stuffed
- Phill Wright - 09 Mar 2007
Hiya,
picking up from Claire's comments,
Rich and myself drove down to Tinleytech with my D' and the senior guy there looked over the car and provided quotes for diy systems for the DeLoreans and our other cars, the donut tank in the front wheel well was fine but the tank must be vented to the outside of the car. A single point system is unlikely to be able to provide an even gas flow to all six cylinders, we even discussed at length using more than one point to inject the gas into the top of the air intakes (the square sections behind the donuts) but it was felt that that would not provide a smooth enough flow of gas, also flooding the top with gas could result in a blowback if the gas ignites in there. I have a spare manifold and that will be fitted with 6 separate injectors and each will have its own valve, although they will all inject gas at the same time as is petrol normally. The systems have their own ecu which is set to fire like this, also, it connects up to a laptop via a serial cable and you monitor the performance via the oxygen sensor at different speeds and setup the injection of gas in a fuel map to ensure correct flow at various speeds.
We also visited a local installer (very professional outfit), and we tried a tank in the front, again, no problems having it there, but it does have to be firmly fitted to the car and vented, they quoted £2K + vat ! and that was also for a multipoint system as they thought a single point job would be useless and a waste of money.
As for fixing the tank inside on the passenger shelf, I wonder if this would pass certification, not only for the venting problem, but also, is there is anywhere strong enough to fix it to that is really secure so the tank couldn't break free in an accident ?, the tanks are extremely heavy, I have a small 36 ltr donut tank (for another non-lpg project, but thats another story) and you have a job carrying it as it weighs so much.
Cheers
Phill
- steve.s - 10 Mar 2007
hi
sorry but personally i wouldn't do it.
unless you're doing 20-30k per year!.
if you sit down and calculate the savings, cost of conversion etc.
you will not get the same mpg for the gas.
any conversion is surely somewhere going to involve cutting the car, and hence maybe devalueing it. i know it sounds daft but the more miles you do the more the 'risk' to your classic, better to save it, go to an auction, buy a 1k corsa 1 litre, flog after a year private for the 1k or so!.
then take the D out for a country road spin when you get home!.
i buy cars through the trade this way for my 'free' motoring!
- Guinney1971 - 10 Mar 2007
The dip in MPG is minimal running on LPG - the D isnt exactly economical as it is, so wont make much difference (circa 5% loss of MPG).
We've just done some quick maths - Say, the installation on a DeLorean (DIY) costs £1000 including certification.
Ok: Unleaded petrol - 1,000 miles @ 20mpg = 50 gallons @ £3.90 per gallon = £195
LPG - 1,000 miles @ 19mpg = 52.63 gallons @ £1.90 per gallon = £100
So therefore, for every 1,000 miles, you will save £95 in fuel (about three tankfulls in a DeLorean). It will therefore take you 10,500 miles to recoup the £1,000 outlay. Obviously, if you get a professional company to do it who charges £2,000 then it will be more like 20,000 miles. Flopsy and Sorbet clocked up about 15,000 miles between them last year - and I would have used Flopsy even more if she was cheaper to run.
On top of this saving in fuel costs, you can also have the satisfaction of knowing you havent chucked loads of pollutants into the atmosphere (and no I'm not a raving tree hugger!!! :lol: ) The only downside I can see, is that you cant take an LPG car through the Channel Tunnel, so we'd have to use a ferry
At the end of the day, we want to use our classic cars more often, rather then have them tucked away as garage jewellery, coming out for the occasional Sunday jaunt.
I dont see what the problem is running LPG? Its only a fuel, and one that is compatible with the petrol internal combustion engine, and one that produces less pollutants, is cheaper to buy and has a lower level of duty (Jan, LPG cars are taxed even less if they are newer as since 2001, new cars in the UK have been taxed according to their CO2 emissions). Deans reason for looking into LPG is that it is cheaper to buy, and as he goes into London alot, means he doesnt have to pay the congestion charge (although this may be up for debate .... )
I was talking to some friends down south the other week, they said they could remember Taxi's in Stevenage running LPG in the late 60's, so its not as if its some new fangled idea.
I also got chatting to a guy at a petrol station one day, as he was filling a very nice early Jaguar XJ up with LPG. I asked if he had any problems or running issues. He said that the car ran fine, there was no noticeable difference in MPG or performance. He also said, that if it wasnt for LPG, he wouldnt be able to afford to run a Jag.
As for cutting the car, that wont be as extreme as some of you may be thinking. You would need to anchor the tank through the spare wheel well, and we have come up with a way of having a very discreet external filler, which you wont even know its there.
All that needs to go down to the tank is one 8mm copper tube for the gas filler, and a 6mm copper tube that goes to the engine. These exit through the 1 inch round vent hole in the case of a torrodial tank. So the worse modification there will be for a donut tank would be 2 mouting holes for the bolts, and a 1 inch vent hole in the bottom of the spare wheel housing - and these can easily be repaired with fibre glass should the system ever need to be removed. Therefore the value of the vehicle should not be affected (and we dont intend selling our D's anyway, so that wouldnt matter to us).
If you are concerned about any additional engine wear running on LPG, engines that were designed to run on unleaded should be fine. But, if you have any concerns, it is very simple to add a small oil dropper unit that would normally be fitted to cars that were designed to run on leaded (like my Rapier) as it gives a bit of extra protection (a one litre bottle would last months and costs pennies).
As a side note, Practical Classics magazine are very interested in LPG and other alternative fuels, and have asked me if they can run a feature on it when I start the conversion on my Rapier. I guess in an ideal world, we would be doing Rapey and Sorbet at the same time
Obviously, we havent completed the conversion project yet, so the full results are yet to be known. However Phill is very keen to convert Sorbet (as I am on Rapey) and is looking forward to completing the project as soon as is possible.
No doubt, he will post his results in due course
Regards,
Claire & Phill