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+--- Thread: right hand drive conversion (/showthread.php?tid=1238)
- NickT - 17 Jan 2008
Phil Peters Wrote:......Our Bosch K-Jet fuel system is a very reliable system…unless it’s left to stand for a prolonged period :roll: :lol: So I’ll need to check things like the fuel injector spray pattern, system pressure etc. A big thanks to NickT for helping me choose a suitable fuel pressure testing kit, cheers matey!.............
This is where I got my fuel pressure test kit from:
http://www.deloreans.co.uk/forum/viewto ... 5628#15628
I have a bosch injector tester/ cleaner if you need your injectors testing/ cleaning in exchange for Beer at Euro-Tech
NickT.
- stunned_monkey - 17 Jan 2008
Phil Peters Wrote:It's never been adequately researched to date but I have a suspicion that the twin brake servo set up may have been done post-factory by Gerry Castle (the guy responsible for retrofitting the so-called "Euro-spec" tail lights to some cars). It would be good to uncover some definitive evidence on this.
I sincerely doubt that is the case. 5565 (?) has a beautifully crafted underbonnet floor that puts the shared brake and clutch reservoir exactly where the brake master -would- be if it were a mirror image of a left hooker. If it were previously a servo-on-pole arrangement, it wouldn't have been made in this way. (although that too couold be aftermarket I suppose)
The reservoir then feeds the brake m/c with twin hoses. #12171 had its shared reservoir where the clutch reservoir usually sits. FWIW 12171 has two different servos, 5565 has two identical ones. I think it came down to simple parts availability - they didn't have a single output master cylinder that fitted the Saab footprint, so they had to use two one-in-one-out remote servos instead of splitting the feeds at the servo, which would have made the most sense. Both the above cars needed both servos rebuilding, as each was full of fluid.
5565 is by far the most "complete" of all the right hand cars that I've seen as it was to have been the London Motor show car, and is definitely the only true "euro spec" prototype, with free flow exhaust, higher final drive, euro spec engine etc. But it was still a prototype and not free from gremlins - thankfully Nigel sets about fixing them as soon as they crop up, and it's driven regularly and stored in true style... :lol:
- Phil Peters - 18 Jan 2008
Hi Mart,
The trouble is these cars are all 25+ years old now and each one has been treated differently by different owners so it sometimes becomes difficult to tell what is and what isn’t “original” on each car.
I’m still in the early stages of researching all this stuff in detail but I’m happy to share my current thoughts. (By the way, I’d like to point out that I don’t have a particular agenda to argue or a case to prove here, I’m simply interested in the history of these cars and how they were put together.)
stunned_monkey Wrote:5565 (?) has a beautifully crafted underbonnet floor that puts the shared brake and clutch reservoir exactly where the brake master -would- be if it were a mirror image of a left hooker.
Do you mean that the boot floor has been cut out and re-made so that the spare wheel space has been moved over to the left (where the BMC is normally located) and the master cylinder access panel has been mirrored onto the right hand side? If so, then VIN# 12173 has this same set up too, which is interesting since it’s from a different “batch” of RHD cars.
stunned_monkey Wrote:#12171 had its shared reservoir where the clutch reservoir usually sits.
I’ve started looking for patterns among the Wooler-Hodec cars (and the AXI cars) to try and see why such a small amount of cars can differ so much. I have a photo showing two cars outside the Wooler-Hodec works in Feb ’82. Although it’s a low-res photo you can clearly see that the cars have federal spec tail lights and no rear license plate bezel. This is how they would have been set up at Dunmurry as we know that the 1981 cars had their rear fascias drilled and license plate bezels fitted once they reached the US. The “Euro-spec” tail lights were a post-factory retrofit item, implemented by Gerry Castle, nothing really to do with the fact that the cars were RHD or Eurospec prototypes.
Do you know whether VIN# 12171 ever had the “Euro” tail lights fitted or if it has had a new rear fascia at any point? I notice that when Daniel sold VIN# 12171 a little while back it didn’t appear to have had holes drilled in the rear fascia to fit a rear licence plate bezel and it was running on federal spec lights. This would seem to indicate that it is running its original Wooler-Hodec set up.
Not all of the RHD cars had the Gerry Castle rear light conversion. Examples here would be VIN# 12176 (Dusty), VIN# 12177 and VIN# 12178 (OGH 486Y). We can trace VIN# 12178 back to January 1984 when it appeared in “Performance Cars” magazine wearing its original federal tail lights and no rear licence plate bezel. When Chrispy unearthed VIN# 12176 (Dusty) it too had its original federal tail lights and no rear licence plate bezel. Interestingly both these cars have the single brake servo set-up.
When we saw VIN# 12177 at Lotus 2006 it was wearing federal tail lights and had never had any holes drilled in the rear fascia to fit a rear license plate bezel. It would be interesting to see what servo set-up VIN# 12177 is running.
VINs 5565, 12173 and 5638 all have the twin brake servo set-up. These cars are a mixture of autos and 5-speeds and are from different “batches” of RHD conversions, but they all have another thing in common: they all had the Gerry Castle rear light conversion.
Conclusive evidence? No, I wouldn’t say so at this stage, especially since VIN# 12179 had the Garry Castle rear lights but only one brake servo! (there’s always one!) But I think there still might be something in it. I’ve also noticed that cars which went to Gerry Castle appear to have been fitted with different seat belts which may reinforce the idea that he did more than just swap the light clusters. Again, I need to investigate this further across all the RHD cars but I think we may see some patterns emerging in all of this once the full and proper info has been gathered.
Incidentally, if there’s anyone out there in cyberspace reading this who used to work for Wooler-Hodec, I’d love to hear from you!
By the way Mart, here’s a photo of VIN# 5565 I took back in 2003 / 2004. Did the car still have the original clutch reservoir in place too?
![[Image: 5565edit.gif]](http://advertfactory.co.uk/vin12173/5565edit.gif)
- stunned_monkey - 18 Jan 2008
Phil Peters Wrote:(By the way, I’d like to point out that I don’t have a particular agenda to argue or a case to prove here, I’m simply interested in the history of these cars and how they were put together.)
Hi Phil - of course, discussion is good
I must say you've got me confused by the photo of 5565's reservoir and I think I may have it the wrong way around in my head - 12171 had the shared reservoir at the brake m/c access panel, and 5565 has it up top where the cltuch reservoir would be. I remember it being a bugger to stop it leaking...Quote:Do you mean that the boot floor has been cut out and re-made so that the spare wheel space has been moved over to the left (where the BMC is normally located) and the master cylinder access panel has been mirrored onto the right hand side? If so, then VIN# 12173 has this same set up too, which is interesting since it’s from a different “batch” of RHD cars.
Yes, exactly that, and very nicely made too.
Quote:Do you know whether VIN# 12171 ever had the “Euro” tail lights fitted or if it has had a new rear fascia at any point? I notice that when Daniel sold VIN# 12171 a little while back it didn’t appear to have had holes drilled in the rear fascia to fit a rear licence plate bezel and it was running on federal spec lights. This would seem to indicate that it is running its original Wooler-Hodec set up.
When Dave and I took delivery of it straight from the museum, it had a standard rear fascia, standard lights and Daniel supplied a bezel to us while we were restoring it. I was under the impression that the authorities were making it deliberately difficult to register DeLoreans back at the time and the only way they'd let them through was to replace the rear lights with ones known to be UK spec. That said, the standard rear lights ARE UK spec. They might not be vertical on the rear face, but the light buckets themselves are... just like mdern cars. And the inner pair of brakelights are directional foglights, not diffused brake lights. The extra pin exists on the boards for powering the inners seperately...
From what I've heard, the reason for Gerry Castle's rear lights was bloody mindedness on the part of the authorities, no more - but I'm sure you're way ahead of me on this subject!
Nigel immediately replaced the rear lights with new original ones on 5565, and it also needed a new taillight loom. The extra pin for the fogs was actually present and is used, however for a reason I can't remember, I had to cut into one wire at the coil and splice in an extra ground to the taillights.
Also the number plate lights were different and had the holes cut larger to fit. You can see it if you look closely.
Quote:VINs 5565, 12173 and 5638 all have the twin brake servo set-up. These cars are a mixture of autos and 5-speeds and are from different “batches” of RHD conversions, but they all have another thing in common: they all had the Gerry Castle rear light conversion.
Conclusive evidence? No, I wouldn’t say so at this stage, especially since VIN# 12179 had the Garry Castle rear lights but only one brake servo!
The Hoopers'
What about Dave H's ? Or have you listed those above (sorry, don't know the vins!)Quote:(there’s always one!) But I think there still might be something in it. I’ve also noticed that cars which went to Gerry Castle appear to have been fitted with different seat belts which may reinforce the idea that he did more than just swap the light clusters.
IIRC 5565's are original (ie mini), but there are some other peculiarities, like all the vent control knobs being metal and a different style.
Quote:By the way Mart, here’s a photo of VIN# 5565 I took back in 2003 / 2004.
On another note - have you met ANY other DeLorean with that extra profile in the fibreglass tub along the top of the fuel filler?
- Phil Peters - 18 Jan 2008
stunned_monkey Wrote:I think I may have it the wrong way around in my head - 12171 had the shared reservoir at the brake m/c access panel, and 5565 has it up top where the clutch reservoir would be.
Hmm, that would make sense I suppose since it would suggest continuity between the two Wooler-Hodec cars in this sense. Maybe Nigel could confirm this for us?
stunned_monkey Wrote:When Dave and I took delivery of it straight from the museum, it had a standard rear fascia, standard lights and Daniel supplied a bezel to us while we were restoring it.
Interesting, so that looks like another one which didn't reach Gerry Castle. Although that does scupper my theory about Castle being responsible for the twin servos. D'oh
stunned_monkey Wrote:I was under the impression that the authorities were making it deliberately difficult to register DeLoreans back at the time and the only way they'd let them through was to replace the rear lights with ones known to be UK spec.
Yeah that's the story I've heard, but if that's the case it always baffles me how cars like Pilot 25 and other known DMC company cars could have been registered with the federal lights. Unless DMCL blagged it somehow? Or maybe the rules are different in Northern Ireland verus England? I don't know the ins and outs of the legalities there really.
stunned_monkey Wrote:From what I've heard, the reason for Gerry Castle's rear lights was bloody mindedness on the part of the authorities, no more - but I'm sure you're way ahead of me on this subject!
I still haven't hit upon anything that gives a definitive answer. There's also not much info on Castle himself or how he was involved with DMCL, although I believe Chrispy knows a bit more about it. The conversion itself (whatever it actually consisted of) was not a cheap job altogether. I can't remember the exact figure and I don't want to mis-quote it but it was certainly several hundred pounds (in 1983).
stunned_monkey Wrote:Also the number plate lights were different and had the holes cut larger to fit. You can see it if you look closely.
Ha, never noticed that 8)
stunned_monkey Wrote:What about Dave H's ? Or have you listed those above (sorry, don't know the vins!)
I've not had chance to look at Dave H's cars. Must pop up to Manchester at some point. The VINs I quoted were mine, Nigels and AXI 1698 (DeLores)
stunned_monkey Wrote:On another note - have you met ANY other DeLorean with that extra profile in the fibreglass tub along the top of the fuel filler?
Nope, never! It's also very well done, took me a while to notice it the first time I saw the car years ago. It's always puzzled me, especially the way it's cut at the side near the corner of the windscreen (not shown in the photo).
- Guinney1971 - 18 Jan 2008
Phil,
it certainly looks like you've done some interesting research on the
RHD cars over the years - fascinating reading
- stunned_monkey - 19 Jan 2008
Phil Peters Wrote:Yeah that's the story I've heard, but if that's the case it always baffles me how cars like Pilot 25 and other known DMC company cars could have been registered with the federal lights. Unless DMCL blagged it somehow? Or maybe the rules are different in Northern Ireland verus England? I don't know the ins and outs of the legalities there really.
Much as today, there are genuine reasons for getting an exemption to type approval rules. A new car can be registered by the manufacturer for the purpose of road testing, promotion etc. Often it is that car that is tested, modified and certified for production. I suspect that while the company was operating, they were able to register some cars on an exemption. After it closed, cars had to individually pass type approval, and for whatever reason this included changing the rear lights. Why the AXI cars had the different rear lights I haven't a clue. Maybe nobody realised the inner lights could be easily modified to be fogs, like we do now.
This theory falls down of course if type approval is a recent thing!
These days of course, a car only has to pass an MOT in order to be registered, as long as it's over 10 years old.
- stunned_monkey - 19 Jan 2008
Have you spoken to Barrie Wills? I have his e-mail address somewhere - he and Nigel had a good chin-wag when I put them in touch with each other. Barrie was able to fill in a lot of the gaps about 5565
- Phil Peters - 21 Jan 2008
I've spoken to Barrie briefly at events over the years but I've got plenty more questions to ask so if you could PM me his e-mail addy that'd be great
- bozzzydmc - 21 Jan 2008
Im amazed that is different why would anyone add that as part of a right hand conversion, to me that was part of the origional mold , there must be another car out there with this ...
- Phil Peters - 21 Jan 2008
Hi Mike,
The fibreglass of the hood has also been modified on VIN# 5565. The car has a hood with pleats, correct for an October '81 car. As we all know, normal hoods on Oct '81 cars have carpet in place of the gasflap but on VIN# 5565 this gasflap area has been fibreglassed over and the hood weather seal has been re-routed so that it goes straight across. The result is that it matches up with this unusual "ridge" on the pontoon instead of following the usual curved profile around the gas filler and clutch filler.
If there's another car out there with this, I suppose it would most likely be VIN# 5592 or VIN# 5638.
- Phil Peters - 21 Jan 2008
stunned_monkey Wrote:Phil_Peters Wrote:I’ve also noticed that cars which went to Gerry Castle appear to have been fitted with different seat belts which may reinforce the idea that he did more than just swap the light clusters.
IIRC 5565's are original (ie mini)
I had a look at my old photos over the weekend and VIN# 5565 has non-standard seat belts. You can see an example here in this photo of Andy Withers' car from the club website:
![[Image: fogswitch01.jpg]](http://www.deloreans.co.uk/features/eurospec/big_pics/fogswitch01.jpg)
- stunned_monkey - 21 Jan 2008
Sheesh, I really can't remember now! You're making me question all sorts of things I thought i knew - like the carpeting going to the edge of the hood around the gas flap area on a late 81 car.... I don't reckon they do...??? I know #4426's didn't. becasue that was the only area where the sseal had failed and gone all tight creating a V-shape as opposed to a U-shape!
- Phil Peters - 21 Jan 2008
Well, it's a little rectangle of carpet which fills the space where the gas flap *would* be. As modelled by Hana, yourself and Dan W here!
![[Image: hist_002.jpg]](http://www.deloreans.co.uk/features/history/hist_002.jpg)
On #5565 a piece of fibreglass had been put right across this section where the little carpet piece normally goes. It actually looked like a bit of fibreglass from another DeLorean hood which had been grafted in. That would make sense I suppose since it would raise the profile of that section of the hood to the correct height, then the weather seal could be applied across it.
- stunned_monkey - 21 Jan 2008
Phil Peters Wrote:I had a look at my old photos over the weekend and VIN# 5565 has non-standard seat belts. You can see an example here in this photo of Andy Withers' car from the club website:
Do you know what, I remember now... I noticed to myself that I never "felt" the difference because I was used to one type of seatbelt in my left hooker, and the normal modern type in a right hand drive car (like my Xantia) so because I'd use my left hand to undo the buckle in a left hook car, and my right hand in a right hook car, I'd never noticed it!
Nigel graciously leant 5565 to Polly and me for the tunnel run before Christmas - it doesn't half go well with it's shorter ratio gearbox and euro engine
The brakes took a bit of getting used to, but certainly had no trouble stopping the thing. It also has very subtle convex mirrors that give the impression that the mirrors are much larger...I'll be doing the exhaust manifold gaskets on 5565 shortly, I'll be sure to send you some pics of the exhaust system off the car.